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రొట్టెల ఇల్లు | House of Bread | בית לחם Forum Index What Christians believe (Theology) Luther Debunked
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Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:00 pm
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Caleb
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Was Martin Luther wrong then?

February 27th 2009, 5:52 am Subject: Justification by faith alone?

Pilgrim wrote:
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Hey Caleb,

It appears you side with Charles Finney and reject Martin Luther. For the record, do you agree with Martin Luther's statement or was he crazy?

The first and chief article is this: Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, died for our sins and was raised again for our justification (Romans 3:24-25). He alone is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29), and God has laid on Him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:6). All have sinned and are justified freely, without their own works and merits, by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, in His blood (Romans 3:23-25). This is necessary to believe. This cannot be otherwise acquired or grasped by any work, law or merit. Therefore, it is clear and certain that this faith alone justifies us ... Nothing of this article can be yielded or surrendered, even though heaven and earth and everything else falls (Mark 13:31).[45] - Martin Luther

The Spirit of the wild boar lives on!


Martin Luther is truly a wild boar on the lose.

In his first article, i don't even see "belief", which is itself a work (John 6:29) as a requirement for initial justification (to be born-again). On the other hand i see that Luther removes all the subjectivity from the transaction. At least in the first article. O yes, He is crazy!

Pilgrim replied:
Quote:
Was Martin Luther crazy, a wild boar, or an instrument of God?



Yes, an instrument of God like Judas Iscariot!
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Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:49 am
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Caleb
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First Fruits: Baptism & Testimony

abidingone1 wrote:
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Simon Magus believed and was baptized, yet was not saved (Matthew Henry Commentary)


Good point! That brings us to the subject of Eternal Security again. You may go here for more: http://skyfeast.org/viewtopic.php?t=1072

abidingone1 replied:
Quote:
What does eternal security have in common with a man who never was saved to begin with? At least stay on topic.

Ken



Thanks for correcting me about Simon. I just went and reread Acts 8.

I did not know that Simon did not receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands. Am i correct in assuming that the Laying on of Hands was not done on Him?

Allow me to clarify my Analogies. Kindly refrain from labeling it as anything else:

Courting :: Wedding :: Automatically "First Act of Marriage in honeymoon"
::
::
Feeling Sleepy :: Hitting the sack :: Automatically Going to sleep
::
::
Believing, when one are baptized with the Good News :: Water Baptism :: Automatically the Laying on of Hands for the gift of the Holy Spirit.

When i say "Automatic," i don't mean without any exceptions. Rather i mean that Faith had been demonstrated by works and thereby pleased God who in turn does that Automatic thing.


If Simon already received the gift of the Holy Spirit by the Laying on of Hands, then what Simon was asking was the power of an Apostle/Prophet/Elder for money. From what Peter spoke it is very likely that Simon lost his salvation right there. But fortunately for him he asked for forgiveness and intercession. IMO he was finally saved. But only God knows his heart.

I suspect that Matthew Henry could be attributing to either of these cases:

1. One of never having the Holy Spirit to begin with and his marriage with God being terminated with a NULL & VOID certificate.

2. And the other of having been saved but losing it after that. Hence my request to you to follow that link.

Thank you!
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Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:11 am
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Salvation= Grace + Faith + Fruit

At Jehovahshammah in Chennai, India, Brother Neville Jayasundara of Sri Lanka in a message, quoted Acts 26:17-18
Quote:

rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, 18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.


and said that sanctification is by faith too, implying that the whole of salvation is by faith alone. Thus he ruled out works altogether.

First off, the meaning of the word sanctification is to be set apart. When we are called out of the world during initial justification at the time when we were born again, that too can be termed as being set apart or sanctified. And i believe, this is the meaning Sanctification takes in Acts 26:18.

As a matter of fact, sanctification takes place at every stage before we are justified. And justification takes place after every stage of sanctification. The righteous ascend and are transformed (2 Corinthians 3:18 ), metamorphosed (Romans 12:1-2) or transfigured (Matthew 17:2) from glory to glory, into the image of the Lord Jesus Christ as they yield to the loving council of the Holy Spirit, renew their minds and mortify the deeds of the flesh, the world and the devil. Where "glory" stands for goodness (cf. Exodus 33:17-19), grace and truth (John 1:14) of the righteous.

All that is possible, only when the "power of resurrection" is operating in us, which is possible only with the presence of the Holy Spirit in us. Unless of course you have already put out His fire in you. We overcome (work) by faith in the council of the Holy Spirit. In other words, we trust the Holy Spirit in us and are saved! Trust requires you to act on a belief, as we have seen above in yielding, renewing and mortifying, which is work.

But when we have done (worked) all those things that are commanded by the Holy Spirit, we don't boast about them but say, "We are worthless slaves; we have only done our duty" as per Luke 17:10. Thus we maintain the integrity of Scripture, as it says, "Salvation belongs to the LORD" (Psalm 3:8a) -- a point that Brother John Vinokumar brought to our attention at Jehovahshammah.

We are saved by grace + faith + works (but works that we may not boast about)!!!
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Last edited by Caleb on Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:05 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:27 am
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Inner-man vs. Outer-man

Scott wrote:
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The Spirit's abiding presence enables all God's people to carry out God's will and to live obediently before him.



Yes indeed! Greater is He who is in you than who is in the world. He can on His part, enable all God's people to overcome/mortify/crucify the flesh, even the world (Galatians 6:14) and the devil.

But...there is a but.

I am not sure if this analogy of two dogs was given as yet in connection with Romans 8:13. A person had two dogs, one white and another black. To begin with, the white was stronger and every time the dogs had a fight the white one would win. But somehow the owner liked the black and so he fed the black more and starved the white. After few weeks the black began to win in every fight the dogs had.

So it is with the two, namely flesh and spirit. "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

Another way of putting Scott's question is:
Quote:
An apple tree bears only apple fruits, so why worry. That is, a "born-again will most certainly bear only good fruit as per Matthew 7:17.


Yes! There is no mistake about that. But the apple tree is not a particular individual. Rather it is the spirit that is in that individual.

So we cannot infer and say that someone who is, so to speak, "born-again" will most certainly bear only good fruit.

Individual's heart on the other hand are likened to the soil. Matthew 13:1-33 speaks of the sower and the seed. Hebrews 6:7-8 NIV elaborates on one of the instances: "Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned."

By their fruit you will only know them and not the other way around. In other words, you cannot say that because it was born in such and such a house or because an apple seedling was planted in that soil at one time the soil will bear only apple trees with apple fruits! Because there is an enemy out there sowing tares.
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Last edited by Caleb on Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:43 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:35 am
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Caleb
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Belief is not enough

huperetes wrote:
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Did Jonah disbelieve God, or just disobey Him?

I don't know.


Nice point!

Jonah believed God but he disobeyed anyway. He was willfully running away from God.

Similarly, after seeing the miracles of Jesus, the Pharisees said Jesus was performing the miracles by the power of Beelzebub. Did they believe or not? Yes of course they did believe. But they chose the wrong thing namely, that Jesus was pulling off those miracles by the power of Beelzebub.

Now, one will naturally disobey the one whom he distrusts. But it is not always the case that he will obey the one whom he trusts or for that matter, just believes.

Therefore salvation requires that you believe as well as obey what you believed.
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Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:51 am
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Continuing in the Faith = Working in Him

Scott wrote:
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Works do not save us. Works are the byproduct of genuine faith, and the genuine believer will produce works.

So, no... works are not "necessary in the final analysis." (but they are assured for the genuine believer)


Let us backtrack a bit.

Is there a possibility of someone who is born again to not produce fruit/works/deeds? You might say it is impossible. But let me frame the question differently. Is there a possibility for someone who is born again at some point in time to stop continuing in the faith, and thus stop working? Paul would not have said "continue in the faith" (Colossians 1:23) if that were not so. Another way of putting it is: Is there a possibility that one is overcome all over again by the flesh, the world and the devil? Yes indeed, and forfeit his salvation.

No works (continuing in faith), no possibility to abide in Him even (John 15:10). And of course, if no abiding, no salvation.

I have attempted here to show from various angles that works are necessary for salvation. Without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews).

We are eternally secure in Him only as long as we abide in Him producing the fruit (works) thereof.

Remember there are four types of soil mentioned in Matthew 13. Not just two, namely the wayside and the good soil. The seed that fell on the way side, yes it never sprang up to begin with. It was never born again to begin with. But seed also fell on the thorny bushes and stony ground where it did spring up -- it was born again! In other words the seed fell to the ground and died and it sprang forth in order to produce fruit. They were definitely born again. (It is the Lord's Word against your word.) But unfortunately for reasons mentioned, in both the cases it did not produce fruit.

Now you might come back and say that those two (in the thorny ground and on stony ground) may not have actually lost their salvation -- "They simply died (slept) to be with the Lord."

Scripture that is usually cited here is 1 Corinthians 3:12-15

Quote:
12Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.


If you look closely, context says that those verses were given to servants of God. In other words they were all assumed to be born again and actively and continuously building with some sort of works--any works, wood or even stubble. These verses do not apply to the two categories mentioned above, namely the seed that fell on thorny bushes and the seed that fell on stony ground. These were "genuine believers" but were not producing works continuously, not even of wood or stubble. On the contrary some of these were producing briers; "it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned."

The fact that scripture mentions a hypothetical situation means that there is every possibility that one can fall away. IT SO HAPPENS THAT IN THE CASE OF THOSE HEBREW BELIEVERS OF THAT TIME THEY WOULD NOT LOSE THEIR SALVATION. GOD WOULD NOT FORGET THEIR WORK ... (HEBREWS 6:9-10).

Grace + Faith + Fruit = Salvation
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Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:13 am
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"Faith that saves is not alone"

Greg Laurie:
Quote:
What Saves is Faith alone, but the Faith that Saves is never Alone.


It is like saying "Behind every successful man is a woman but don't give her any credit."
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